violent four year old.

Submitted by MamaButterfly on Wed, 08/06/2008 - 12:32pm.

My son is becoming very violent. He has an obsession with swords and movies about fighting, and he's been hurting people and breaking glass on purpose every day. Like for example, the other day he threw a jar on the floor to break it, and then jumped on it and cut a huge slice in his foot.
He beats up and attacks his older sister, who tries not to hurt him when she fights back.
How can I stop this NOW? I took all his swords away and I'm going to spend time with him developing interests that aren't fighting (swimming, biking, sports), but any other ideas?

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Submitted by rosie on Wed, 08/06/2008 - 3:50pm.

I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but have you thought of enrolling him in karate? The teachers usually stress how fighting is only for self-defense and teach self-discipline to the kids.
Is it possible he's getting hit/hurt by someone, an adult or another child, and he's just taking it out in this way?
I would prevent him from watching tv, movies or video games with any violence until you get this under control. Maybe he would benefit from a childrens book about how hands aren't for hitting.
Good Luck.

Submitted by SkyKid45 on Wed, 08/06/2008 - 4:29pm.

I second karate b/c it is a lot about control and learning self defense not violence. I'm not saying that this is your son at all, but mine (who will be 4 soon) will act out like that when he is bored or for attention. He doesn't obsess over swords but he'll jump around and run around screaming and he's broken things/gotten hurt several times when he does that. However, he seems to be doing these things not to be bad but because he either wants to get my attention or he can't think of something constructive to do. Just a thought. Hopefully you can get all this figured out soon

Submitted by SativaStarr on Wed, 08/06/2008 - 6:24pm.

I would also try to remove any violent/agressive stimuli.. no toys that could be used as weapons (in play), video games that include any violence at all, no tv shows (even cartoons) w/ violence/aggression (including kid stuff like teenage mutant ninja turtles, power rangers, etc).
also, is there potentially a reason for the increased aggression? A major life change or something along that line? Maybe hes feelin frustrated some reason and this is way of expressin it?
I think tryin to help hi8m find other outlets that are healthier is a great idea. and if it persists Id probably seek out a good child psychologist to evaluate the situation. But Id avoid a child psychiatrist as they tend to push meds. good luck mama and i hope you can get this under control very soon.. it must be incredibly stressful dealin with such behavior.

Submitted by MamaButterfly on Wed, 08/06/2008 - 8:21pm.

I don't think he needs to see a psychiatrist or anything like that... he's just a little boy. The reason he's so into violence is because his dad lets him watch teenage mutant ninja turtles and other movies about fighting, and buys him lots of toy weapons and fighting guys. His dad won't listen to me at all, so I can't control what goes on at his house at all.
Sometimes he's doing it for attention, but more often than not, it's just what he wants to play. He finds it fun and stimulating to whack a dish off the table with his sword when no one is looking and watch it crash to the floor. But right now he doesn't have any swords because they've all been taken away. But what did his dad buy him while he was over there for a couple days? A sword "to bring to mommy's house." I said no, and it got left behind.
I don't like to take away his favorite toys and strongest interest. He doesn't want to do karate because it isn't "fighting with swords" and he's too young for fencing. Today I sat on the floor with him and played legos, and we made a "robot circus" because he loves robots and I thought if we're making "trick robots" to perform for the audience of little people, maybe he'll come up with ideas that aren't violent. I made a hopper, a spinner, animals, clowns, etc. Guess what he made? A "hero that shoots cannon balls with a gun in his tummy" and a "bad guy"

Submitted by Yabinti on Thu, 08/07/2008 - 5:50am.

Ok, so too young for karate... and not interested anyways because there are no swords...
And an uncooperative Dad.....
Wow, I'm sorry Hun.
Could the swords maybe become outdoor toys?
That would solve two issue... they wouldn't be destroying the house, and he's be more free to run around outside... READ: wear off energy.
Also, GOOD FOR YOU for not allowing his Dad's toy choices into your home. It's YOUR home. YOU make the rules. YOU set the standards... The sooner his Dad catches on, the easier it will be on everyone.

Submitted by MamaButterfly on Thu, 08/07/2008 - 7:16am.

Well, swords ARE supposed to be outside toys. He doesn't follow the rules. I feel like a fuckup anyway, like it's my fault because I haven't been a good mother. And I just moved in with a boyfriend who doesn't even like kids. So I don't know. He made a bunch of promises before we moved in that were bullshit. Every man in my life is a fucking asshole, so how am I supposed to teach Jasper to be a good boy?

Submitted by Yabinti on Thu, 08/07/2008 - 8:26am.

Well, I have faith in you.... You will have to limit the assholes.... but I think you can do it hunny....
You will have to enforce the 'outside/inside' toy rule.
My daughter tries to bring balls in... and I have to take them, and put them back out.... because I sorta like my glassware, and we have a new baby.... balls being thrown is just not safe, and it's a pain in the ass.
You are the Mom..... and a damn good one at that!

Submitted by MamaButterfly on Thu, 08/07/2008 - 9:06am.

Thank you. Really. That was exactly the response I needed. Sometimes I get lazy about enforcing rules, but I'm going to have to get more serious about it. And as far as assholes... I'm working on that.

Submitted by Yabinti on Thu, 08/07/2008 - 9:09am.

We've all had bouts with assholes... I swear back when I was dating, I was a magnet.
I'm sometimes surprised that I managed to find a partner who is as awesome as he is... Don't get me wrong, sometimes he is an asshole, but then again so am I.
Enforcing rules can be hard sometimes.
I know I get slack, and with a new baby I have had to toughen up... say what I mean, and follow through with my threats... otherwise, she plays me like a violin!
We're all in this together Mama!

Submitted by mamamayhem on Thu, 08/14/2008 - 6:28pm.

Do NOT enroll a violent child in karate. It doesn't matter that they try to teach discipline or whatever else anyone says, as a mother of a violent child I've been down that road. Don't do it, you'll regret it. Next thing you know they think they're power rangers or whatever, and they're trying to use the tactics on kids in the neighborhood. I've never heard the parent of a violent child say put them in karate, though even my mother (none of us were violent) tried to tell me to do it, I did it, and it was the worst possible thing I could've done. With today's heavily asian influenced child media (one example, Kung Fu Panda), when they hear 'karate' kids think 'karate CHOP.' And they're off whacking their friends in the necks.
My son's violence started at four, and got worse as he got older. It turns out of course, that he's got ADHD coupled with violent outbursts. Good times. I know you can't tell dad what to do because he's determined to be an ass, but what does he think when his son goes around breaking things and hurting people? Is he just okay with that?

Submitted by MamaButterfly on Thu, 08/14/2008 - 8:16pm.

I agree, karate is not for him. At least not yet. It might be a good outlet when he's old enough to understand the difference.
His dad is... well, basically a hypocrite. He says one thing and does another, he insists the behavior is my fault, etc. It's really strange because before our baby was born he was always talking about never raising a child exactly the way he's raising him now. He was always really hard on my daughter (his stepdaughter) and lets his son get away with anything. It's weird. He wouldn't even let my daughter watch tv when she was my son's age.

Submitted by momtobe19 on Sun, 08/17/2008 - 12:27pm.

I don't think he needs to see a psychiatrist or anything like that... he's just a little boy.
I dont agree with this.....J is seeing a physchologist and a neurologist for meds and his behavior has dramatically improved. They do drama play and find out if there r underlying reason for the behavior. mama it's not ur fault hang in there.Psychologist are trained to help find out why children r violent, and they can give you techniques to use at home.

Submitted by MamaButterfly on Wed, 08/20/2008 - 12:09pm.

A psychologist is completely different from a psychiatrist. I would consider taking him to a counselor or something, but not a psychiatrist. That's just a part of my personal value system.

Submitted by Amy Rox on Tue, 08/19/2008 - 7:00pm.

in response to momtobe19's comment:
there is a big difference between psychologists and psychiatrists. psychologists are PhDs and are not able to prescribe meds, but like she said, they will conduct play therapy with a kiddo. psychiatrists are doctors whose sole job is to write psych medication prescriptions and monitor people on meds, no therapy involved- just brief questions about whether things have improved/worsened in relation to med timelines.
to the OP:
i also disagree that he's "just a little boy acting appropriately." i think you hit the nail on the head- he is doing it for attention, and he sounds angry. with this new man in your life, it must be stressful for the kids. be sure they know they are your #1 priority and good luck.

Submitted by MamaButterfly on Wed, 08/20/2008 - 12:11pm.

what I meant by "just a little boy" is that my son is very little and, in my opinion, way too young for a doctor that would prescribe meds. I'm not making a judgement on anyone else's choices, but in my family that is not an option.

Submitted by mamamayhem on Wed, 08/20/2008 - 8:25am.

I also don't think a psychologist would be a bad idea. Matt sees a psychiatrist and a psychologist. His therapy is done with a psychologist, and he sees the Psychiatrist once a month for his medication. Psychiatry is also a lot different than it used to be. You don't just walk out with a prescription, and they do not medicate children as young as your son is. I'm not just talking from his psychiatrist either, I used to work for a completely separate office, and they're the same way, they do not medicate young children anymore.
Taking him to a psychologist might be a really good option. If nothing else, it gives him that hour to be pretty much alone with you and receive your attention without other things getting in the way. I understand, it took me a long time to come to grips with the fact that Matt had a problem, so why not try starting with just some mom-and-him time? For at least an hour every week, take him somewhere just the two of you. Even if it's just to go for a walk around the block. The attention might really help.

Submitted by MamaButterfly on Wed, 08/20/2008 - 12:15pm.

That is a great idea, and I know individual attention is a problem for both my kids. Yesterday I spend half an hour playing with him at the park near my daughter's piano lesson, and we had so much fun, and he seemed so happy afterword. I pretended to be trapped in a burning building, and he was a fireman that had to come and rescue me, which of course turned into him having to kill bad guys to get to me.

Submitted by mamamayhem on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 3:38pm.

Well, I know he's still fighting and everything, but maybe the first step here is to teach him appropriate places to behave this way. It's fine to "fight badguys" in the PARK, it's not okay to do the same thing in the living room. Kids can't quit things cold turkey, especially when they're that young, and especially when it's something they find that fun. Try focusing on where it's appropriate for him to do this thing he loves to do, the same as you'd teach inside voice/outside voice, there's inside play and outside play. It might make it easier for him to be calm in the house if he knows he's not completely banned from that activity.
And having everyone in here talking about how psychiatrists "push meds" is getting pretty irritating and hurtful to me. Some kids NEED medication, mine is one of them, and taking children to a psychiatrist does NOT guarantee you walk out with a prescription. So if everyone could try and be a little more considerate to the mamas here with special needs children I'd appreciate it.

Submitted by SativaStarr on Wed, 08/20/2008 - 6:06pm.

SativaStarr wrote:

I think tryin to help hi8m find other outlets that are healthier is a great idea. and if it persists Id probably seek out a good child psychologist to evaluate the situation. But Id avoid a child psychiatrist as they tend to push meds. good luck mama and i hope you can get this under control very soon.. it must be incredibly stressful dealin with such behavior.

I just wanted to point out.. I NEVER said you should go to a psychiatrist.. actually if you reread my initial post I actually said to avoid a psychiatrist because they push meds.
And thats awesome that he seemed to respond so positively to the individual attention.. I know its hard to make time with 2 kids, but I think thats a great start.

Submitted by momtobe19 on Sun, 08/24/2008 - 8:27am.

Some kids NEED medication, mine is one of them, and taking children to a psychiatrist does NOT guarantee you walk out with a prescription
I agree as a mother who had no choice but to put my child on meds for the fear he would hurt someone or himself. physchiatrist dont push meds with small children they will make you see a doctor and a psychologist first....you can't just walk in and walk out with a prescription....well its not like that here anyway....you need to go through steps first.
and parden me i thought that said psychologist...
so im not much help meds was the only thing that worked for us

Submitted by Hilary on Mon, 08/25/2008 - 4:25pm.

How do you react when he is violent? I mean exactly what do you do? Is it the same every time? Is it dependent on the degree of violence(i.e. playing sword games inside the house vs. breaking things vs. hurting people)? Does he know what the consequences are if he breaks your rules?
Did this just start recently, or has it been happening for a while? Have there been any major changes/stressing factors in his life recently? Maybe keep a journal for a week, write down incidents of violence, and write down everything you can remember about what happened before and afterwards, including your own reactions. See if you find any patterns.

rosie wrote:
Is it possible he's getting hit/hurt by someone, an adult or another child, and he's just taking it out in this way?
This is also definitely something to think about/talk to him about (the good touch/bad touch conversation is SO important!)

Submitted by MamaButterfly on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 3:33pm.

It's gotten progressively worse and I think is a direct response to media. As far as response - I will just remove the item he is hitting things with and tell him he can have it back "tomorrow". I know a whole day seems like a long time, but he has other swords, and he will go and get one and play with it outside, which is also what I'm encouraging him to do thanks to advice from you mamas. The "fighting bad guys" has become an outside activity, and this is great because not only is he not trashing the house, but he's playing outside more! I also got him a stack of new movies that aren't violent but still interesting to him, and he's been more focused on those than the swordfighting ones. So I think things are better.
No one is hurting him, though he does get yelled at occassionally and needs more attention. But I'm working on that the best I can without the cooperation of his father. He's always hardest right when he gets back, but it seems like giving him a way to do it without getting in trouble (outside) is helping him see that mom's house has different rules than dad's house.

Submitted by Jube on Mon, 09/01/2008 - 11:24am.

mamasgirl2007, I think you may be interested in researching the affects of television on children under the age of 3. TV is completely unnecessary for them and is actually detrimental for their cognitive development. I would highly doubt a 15 month old child is actually learning anything from those shows. More than likely they are probably just being hypnotized by the glamor of all the colours.
None the less, the differences between a 4 year old and a 15 month old are huge. 15 months still very much just a baby. At 4 years you can actually bargain with him.
I would never agree that introducing tv shows as a tool for teaching life skills is the right thing to do. I actually think that's one of the worst things, and is majorly what's wrong with western society.

Submitted by mamasgirl2007 on Wed, 09/03/2008 - 1:44pm.

Jube wrote:
mamasgirl2007, I think you may be interested in researching the affects of television on children under the age of 3. TV is completely unnecessary for them and is actually detrimental for their cognitive development. I would highly doubt a 15 month old child is actually learning anything from those shows. More than likely they are probably just being hypnotized by the glamor of all the colours.
None the less, the differences between a 4 year old and a 15 month old are huge. 15 months still very much just a baby. At 4 years you can actually bargain with him.
I would never agree that introducing tv shows as a tool for teaching life skills is the right thing to do. I actually think that's one of the worst things, and is majorly what's wrong with western society.

actually my 15 month old daughter has learned her colors shapes ABCs names of animals from watching those shows so its safe to say that i disagree with your reasoning Jube but i do agree that television is not a great way to teach things like this to ALL kids for some its just easier to learn like my daughter for instance.Also i had my daughter tested for advancement in her developmental stage when she was 10months old and the test showed that she is as advanced as a 2.5 year old is, so she is bout a year and some odd months more advanced than other babies her age is. like i said i'm not saying that you are completely wrong about the television thing Jube but i know that my daughter learns easier from watching the shows on noggin than she does learning from me.
proud mama as of june 2nd 2007

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